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[COMPLETE] Feedback & Testing for "Haunted Slums" by VP

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Phant0mD

Phant0mD

[COMPLETE] Feedback & Testing for "Haunted Slums" by VP 51937087073_50975dcb2f_o
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Coding format related feedback/errors:

Issue#01: INFO SECTION ERRORS
Spoiler:


Issue#02: CAMERA SECTION ERRORS
Spoiler:


Issue#03: PLAYERINFO SECTION ERRORS
Spoiler:

Issue#04:STAGEINFO SECTION ERRORS
Spoiler:


Issue#05: AIR FORMAT ERRORS
Spoiler:

Issue#06: ZOOMDELTA/DELTA PARAMETER BGLAYER OBJECT VALUE ERRORS
Spoiler:



Last edited by Phant0mD on Thu Jul 29, 2021 4:49 am; edited 1 time in total


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Vegaz_Parrelli

Vegaz_Parrelli

[COMPLETE] Feedback & Testing for "Haunted Slums" by VP 52117799409_ab650ff4e9_o
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Not gonna lie...not the feedback I expected. But some needed info, none the less. I've been trying to support winmugen for so long I didn't realize that I haven't used pcx files in a few years now. I've always tried to support wingmugen, but it's a chore so I stopped. But in doing so, I never really updated my default stage file which I use as the base for ALL my stages. Since 1.0 and up uses most of what you suggested, and that's all I use anyway, I'll finally update my default file and use that going forward. I'll have to make some updates on a few of my already completed stages(10-20 I think lol) or maybe I'll just make changes to a few select ones.

I have noticed that zoom in effects some chars specifically, but I do enjoy the dynamic effect it has on the zoom. Probably the only thing I disagree with. The zoom delta values are absolutely correct tho. I know how delta values work, but for some reason it didn't look right to me reversed. But I'm definitely changing them. I did duplicate the animations, but I differentiated them with id #'s. Therefore the bgctrl's handle them individually. I could change the actionno's but I see no need. Unless there's something I'm unaware of...

I kinda fealt singled out, but this is really a teachable moment for everyone. So I understand how I dm'd you but you posted the feedback IN THE FORUM FOR ALL TO SEEEEE! LOL! Thanks...


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Phant0mD

Phant0mD

[COMPLETE] Feedback & Testing for "Haunted Slums" by VP 51937087073_50975dcb2f_o
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Vegaz_Parrelli wrote:Not gonna lie...not the feedback I expected. But some needed info, none the less.

As i'm sure most of ya'll already know, i'm not really big on giving feedback in general lol.
If/when I do, its usually for a specific reason/higher purpose lol.


Vegaz_Parrelli wrote:I never really updated my default stage file which I use as the base for ALL my stages. Since 1.0 and up uses most of what you suggested, and that's all I use anyway, I'll finally update my default file and use that going forward.

I can tell that's the main root of the issues I found.
Your .DEF file on face value is a mix of Winmugen/1.0/1.1 specific code which is not ideal.
What may be compatible on your personal build will not work universally on all mugen configs depending on .cfg stagefit/localcoord/res settings etc.
It's easy to fall into the pattern of reusing old code without knowing better if nobody points it out/goes to the length to test it.
MFG etc may be good forums for character feedback but definitely not for stages in my personal experience.
Which will explain how they were undetected for so long.


Vegaz_Parrelli wrote:I have noticed that zoom in effects some chars specifically, but I do enjoy the dynamic effect it has on the zoom. Probably the only thing I disagree with.

The zoomin issue i mentioned is the same issue as above.
It's not that an "error", it is more-so that it is not recommended to change the zoomin default value unless for a specific reason.
Changing the default zoomin value can interfere with common.cns triggers and char/specific triggers in mugen 1.1.
Niche features like stage interaction with water/sand/dust landing effects in add004, 1.1 character specific super BG fx/ cutscenes, and more.
That's because those triggers rely on char coord space start location/distance and other things that zoomin can interfere with.
This wouldn't be a problem if everyone coded for 1.1, but unfortunately 90% of characters are coded in 1.0 format.
and 70% of that 90% use the same copy paste pots or KOF code as you already know lol.

I understand why you do it as its a personal preference for your personal mugen.
Ultimately it depends on your personal goal in stage creation - universal compatibility, or just share whatever your mugen experience is with others etc. If that makes sense. A suggestion would be to create 2 .defs in future: 1 with no zoom in. One with zoom in if its important to you i guess.

The stage aesthetic/sprites themselves and the environment should not be created in a way that relies on zoomin values to complete its aesthetic if that makes sense - since we already have the localcoord function and x/y scale that can be used to control overall stage scaling.
It's more something that the user can/should adjust themself if they want it for any specific reason - it's just a camera movement opposed to a stage feature/aesthetic.



Vegaz_Parrelli wrote:The zoom delta values are absolutely correct tho. I know how delta values work, but for some reason it didn't look right to me reversed. But I'm definitely changing them.

This is definitely the biggest dragon of them all. And definitely one I think I can give you tough love on since you should know better being OG status now lol.
So i'm gonna over explain his one 2008 phantomGs stage roast room mugen detention style lol.

There are only 1 or VERY VERY VERY EXTREMELY rare scenarios where you would ever have a [BG layer] with a low zoomdelta/delta value placed in front of a [BG layer] with a high zoomdelta/delta value.
That is not just a Mugen rule, but a 2D animation world / graphic design rule as well.
A 2D plane of existence lives on an XY axis.
On this axis, objects only move up down left right.
There is an imaginary Z axis we create which gives the 2.5 D illusion of depth.
We do this by 2 methods.
One is parallax.
The other is deltas.
The closer object X is to the front of the screen on the Z axis, the higher its values.
the FURTHER object X is from the front of the screen on the Z axis, the LOWER its values.
zoomdeltas effects the size scale factor of an object moving on this magical z axis - close things are BIG. far things are SMALL
If you have a far away skyscraper or mountains et at 0.9 zoomdelta / delta, and a trash can by your sidewalk set at 0.85 delta/zoomdelta
That means your trash can is moving slower in your eye than the massive building mountain.
which would make no sense right? lol.
Another way to grasp this would be to look at any of the goat stages out there from [NAM/the old days/insert your fav creator] that have incredible zooming depth and see how they did it in their .defs


Vegaz_Parrelli wrote:I kinda fealt singled out, but this is really a teachable moment for everyone. So I understand how I dm'd you but you posted the feedback IN THE FORUM FOR ALL TO SEEEEE! LOL! Thanks...

lol don't feel singled out. this is a very RARE occasion i actually give comprehensive feedback, but I thought it was time for us all to have a reality check on what the NAM standard should be - as these issues are not unique to just you, but many others ive seen too across wider community.

Also this is gentle feedback compared to what i was raised on lol.
Brutal feedback used to be the norm back in the day which is why the standard was so high.
But ive watched the state of mugen quality levels for a while now and sadly the standards have dropped very low on the stage front to the point that people are willing to accept sub standard as quality when we CAN do better, and WILL.....do better lol.

Also unless you didn't notice, everything I have given feedback on is purely code related.
I haven't mentioned anything regarding aesthetics/sprites themselves as i don't think its relevant at this point in comparison to the latter.
Also because art style/sprites/imagery is purely based on personal preference so its always pointless to share personal opinion over art, whereas code cannot be debated as its gospel lol

I hope all this helps.


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Vegaz_Parrelli

Vegaz_Parrelli

[COMPLETE] Feedback & Testing for "Haunted Slums" by VP 52117799409_ab650ff4e9_o
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Good stuff. I've been around long enough to remember the brutal days of feedback. Don't worry. I'm not offended in any way. I know what time it is. I was getting chewed up and spit out by guys like Noz and Cybaster on day one. Darkflare. And a bunch I can't remember. Even Dissidia...they all came around. No big deal. This really helps tho. No cap.



Last edited by Vegaz_Parrelli on Thu Jul 29, 2021 11:41 am; edited 1 time in total


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Phant0mD

Phant0mD

[COMPLETE] Feedback & Testing for "Haunted Slums" by VP 51937087073_50975dcb2f_o
卍♆★Divine Overseer★♆卍
Verified Senior Forum support/assistant/curator
Taunting The Devil (Gold)
Newagemugen Member for Over 7 Years
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Commissioned/Donated to support Newagemugen
Apple Of The Eye (Platinum)
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Kindred Spirit (Gold)
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Lord Of War (Gold)
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then my work here is done
thawotitizboi


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Filthy Fredo

Filthy Fredo

[COMPLETE] Feedback & Testing for "Haunted Slums" by VP 50086984306_129c06f147_o
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this is that skeleton floating head stage you sent me huh.
Yeah it had alot of stuff you need to fix in the DEF.
The ABCs are very important those basic things you should learn for mugen stages in mugen 1.1
i dunno if anyone told you but why use verticalfollow if you use zoom on your stages?
zoom is only for mugen 1.1 and mugen 1.1 doesnt use verticalfollow anymore because it got replaced by better scroll code called tensionhigh low.
if you are using zoom you should only be using mugen 1.1 camera setting or else your stage is the frankenstein code of old mugen when its not as good for movement anymore

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